The Camping Forum

[rexgrant]

Hi all
My condolences to the family of this lady. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpres ... 463997740A
For years I Have tried to pass on to campers the danger of using LPG in tents whether for cooking or heating.
SIG are the danger with LPG that is heavier than air and will sink and collect in the lowest area of the SIG
and fumes from fossil heaters will rise, good quality tents like the Karsten,Tentipi, bell tents and some of the smaller dome tents have good ventilation at the top of the tents. all makers/suppliers of tents warn buyers not to use LPG or fossil fuel heater in tents, but new campers go to camp with cheap sleeping bags no insulation under the inflatable mattresses and then they get so cold they risk their lives with these LPG heaters. A Scottish Lady was once asked what is the most important thing a camper in a tent should buy. She said and I agree with her is the best sleeping bag you can afford and lots of good insulation for under the Inflatable bed
Who will be next
Regards
Rex.

[nutgone]

I would be interested to know more about this case, but have yet to find anything published.
It's unclear weather or not the barbecue in question was a gas or charcoal one.

Many people still don't understand that it's not just gas appliances which give off carbon monoxide. ANYTHING that burns will give off carbon monoxide due to the fact that carbon in the burning material is reacting with oxygen in the air. You will also get other noxious gasses, many of which can also cause death by asphyxiation. (Out of interest I looked up "Asphyxia" on Wikipedia, HERE is what I found (note "charcoal" is mentioned).

HERE is yet another recent story of someone being overcome by fumes from a charcoal barbecue being bought into a tent over night.

It's such a sad affair, & I feel as camping gets ever more popular & more & more inexperienced campers are let loose with barbecues & various gas appliances we will only see more of this.

[OutdoorWorldDirect]

To be honest, i'm quite surprised this type of thing does not happen more because it's not something a first time camper would know off hand. A lot of the time it should be up to retailers and Gas sellers to educate the customer about the risks at the point of sale.

Maybe it should be printed clearer on the boxes of the Gas Heaters about the risks of using them within a tent.

Very sad though.

David

[nutgone]

I don't think Gas heaters are the main problem. I was reading one of Wayne's older threads about a cartridge type gas heater, left switched on in his dining room, with doors & windows shut, for a good while & it failed to activate a carbon monoxide detector. They burn the gas so well they should be quite safe inside tents, although it always pays to be cautious.

What this, & other similar stories, have highlighted for me is the amount of people who think carbon monoxide just comes from gas appliances It's genuinely worrying.
The case in Norfolk in July was a charcoal barbecue, & it looks like this one could be also.

I think people are so scared to use gas in tents they take a smouldering barbecue in instead, or take it in believing it's out (or almost out).

ANYTHING that burns will give off carbon monoxide, as well as other toxic/noxious fumes. The better it burns, or more complete the combustion, the LESS carbon monoxide will be produced.
Anything with a good blue flame is pretty much perfect combustion, so not much carbon monoxide.

Mind you, there's also the gas itself, if not ignited it can still suffocate/asphyxiate a person, especially if you're lying close to the ground, like on a SIM or air bed (another reason I like to use a proper camp bed).

It is such a shame these tragedies go on, & I think the media should do more to educate the public into the dangers of these things, & also how safe some of the proper camping equipment can be, when used correctly.

EDIT: I found Wayne's heater thread here:
http://www.thecampingforum.co.uk/forum/tent-accessories/topic933.html

It makes for some very interesting reading, & I for one will be buying myself a detector as my next piece of CAMPING kit.

[Camping Mad]

Hi
I read about this tragedy a few days before I went camping with my husband and kids.

The news of this poor woman and several other news stories of deaths caused by carbon monoxide poisoning during this summer really upset me and made me scared to go camping. I made sure that we took LOADS of bedding and although I had no intention of having the gas stove or BBQ anywhere near the tent I bought a carbon monoxide alarm too (it was £17 I think from www.safelincs.co.uk)
I think campers are getting caught out with the low night time temps this summer.

[nutgone]

The trouble is, I, like a lot of men (& possibly women as well) know the dangers all too well, but still choose to think I know better. I use an old fashioned canvas frame tent & I cook inside it with a Coleman 424 stove (petrol powered) & I will spark up the gas heater if it's a bit chilly, for a while before going to bed (as well as make a hot chocolate if it's really cold, as boiling the kettle generates some heat)

Now I always go by what people did back in the 70s & early 80s; back then everyone used to cook in their tents, use gas lamps (another addition to my kit I've yet to try out) & some very old fashioned heaters, & you rarely, if ever, used to hear stories of people being overcome by fumes.

But I was a kid back then (80s, not 70s) so I suppose I wouldn't have heard any of these stories, & although camping was popular there probably weren't anywhere near as many people doing it as there are now.
Also, times have moved on now, OK I use a canvas frame tent, but I'm in the minority, most people use poly tents with full sewn-in groundsheet. Also, there weren't any carbon monoxide detectors back then (not that I know of anyway).

Anyway, I think for the price a carbon monoxide detector should be a MUST for campers these days. I suppose many will be thinking back to those childhood camping holidays & thinking it was OK to use appliances in tents back then, so it must be OK (if not even safer) to use them now. Not realising how much tent technology has moved on in recent years.
Also, those campers who believe they are invincible (like me ) can put the minds of their loved ones at rest with the addition of a carbon monoxide detector (I know the more worrisome members of my family would be a lot happier if I had one in my tent when I go off camping alone).

What a shame none of these big stores offer them with tents &/or cookers etc, or that the media doesn't do something to help educate the new campers (& some of the more experienced ones) about the dangers of these things, then maybe this kind of wasteful & unnecessary tragedy could be avoided.

[JohnH]

A friend of a friend took his kids camping for the first time, it was cold so he brought the BBQ inside at bedtime!!!!
Shocking!

[Dippy]

Tragic. Recently there was something posted in another forum about someone (a young woman) dying in her tent after taking the bbq inside - possibly this same one.

That said I'm going to put my hands up & say we do cook inside our tent on our gas cooker & it is not a Karsten or bell tent but a Vango with a sig. We will continue to do so in future as well whenever the weather is vile as the tent is large & we take sensible precations & great care & have no kids in the tent (perish the thought). We always turn the gas off at the bottle after cooking. And have fire buckets blankets & extinguishers at hand !

Charcoal BBQ's are another matter entirely in an enclosed space.

[nutgone]

I still cook in my tent, although it's a canvas frame tent. But the other night it was COLD! & I find heating the living area never heats the bedroom pod (which does have SIG). So, after purchasing a rather good quality 2nd hand Camping Gaz heater from a jumble stall at the steam rally I had one heater in the living area & had another one, left on low, heating the bedroom pod up before I went to bed.

I would never even think about leaving one on whilst asleep though. I find as long as it's warm when I get into bed, I'm OK 'til morning. So there's no point leaving a heater on all night anyway, even if I could.

No, there definitely seems to be a lack of education going on here somewhere. Just because I knew the dangers of charcoal barbecues doesn't mean everyone else does. But where do you stop with the nanny-state warning labels? Have they got room to put one on that says "Do Not Use in Tents!" I mean, I kind of expected that to just be common sense, but obviously not.

[Dippy]

I don't really think it is `nanny state' to put warnings on things that really are dangerous though ( I do think we live in a nanny state mind you & I detest it !)

Nanny State is to my mind when they start banning them or restricting the sale or laying down legislation like they have with knives so you risk getting done for having a pruning knife in your pocket even if you're pruning your own hedge off the street

I personally feel there should be more warnings & more education about such basic safety issues. As regards people being unaware of the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning from using BBQ's/gas aplliances in tents I don't think it's neccessarily due to a lack of common sense (or intelligence). It's something that plenty of quite sensible & even very bright people just have never been told about & I don't think they should be expected to just know - I only know because I happen to have been told by someone years ago ! That and reading are how we find out most things...

[nutgone]

I've just been sent this email from another camping forum I belong to, it's a nice idea, maybe this forum could put something similar together & send it to all members:


Message
SAFETY WARNING


UNDER NO CICUMSTANCES
PLACE A COOLING DOWN BARBEQUE
IN YOUR TENT OR AWNING
EVEN IF YOU ARE FEELING CHILLY
DURING THE EVENING

BOTH GAS AND CHARCOAL BARBEQUES
GIVE OFF CARBON MONOXIDE FUMES
WHILST COOLING
AND WILL KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
WHILST YOU ARE A SLEEP

RECENT REPORTS
THAT
TWO CAMPERS HAVE DIED
PLUS
A WHOLE FAMILY
WERE TAKEN TO HOSPITAL

SUFFERING FROM

EXTREME

CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING

Regards,
The Carry On Camping Nationwide Campers U.K Team.

http://carryoncamping.smfforfree.com/index.php

[Wayne]

Thats a good idea, I'm going to have a chat with Andy, I have an idea. Will get back to you.

As for the heater in my tent. I did use it with the door open in the early evening with no problems and since I had a carbon monoxide detector above it decided to have it on near the door which was vented a little. Also the Carolina has very good ventilation. The alarm was actually set off as the gas ran out, and the flame went out. At least i think.

I actually feel a little embarrassed about doing that, but I only did it because I had what I considered to be a proven protection device.

What I may not have mentioned was that when I received the heater I switched it on and placed it on the table in the dining room. I then hung the detector above the heater (about a foot up) and left it with the door shut, I couldn't get the alarm to go off at all

Now I am not advocating its fine to use a gas heater in a tent. But I am advocating all of us should have a smoke/CO alarm hanging in the tent. There less than £20, what value do you put on the lifes of your loved ones

Note, by proven protection device I mean that i had operated the test button up on fitting the detector in the tent, the healthy alarm LED was lit and I know the use by date was not passed.

Smoke detectors have a life span of about 8 to 10 years, so don't think an old detector is good for camping
Also there are two types of detectors:
Photelectric = these types of detectors respond best to smoldering fires
Ion = Respond best to naked flames.
I would say your slightly better with a Photoelectric, but either will work well.

[nutgone]

Wise words there Wayne. I would go for the optical smoke detector as well (photo-electric one) as the ionisation ones do tend to be a bit over-sensitive & can be subject to nuisance-alarms (not good to have 110 decibels going off in the middle of a packed camping field half way through the night because someone decided to have a crafty fag or put the kettle on).

I'm personally more interested in the carbon monoxide detector for myself. I think every tent should have one.

Well, every tent where there's going to be any burning type appliances.

But I suppose a smoke alarm wouldn't hurt as well. Or a combined one.

Strange how you failed to set yours off with your heater indoors. It probably would've been more effective on the ceiling (although I've never read the instructions, so don't really know about where/how to site them).

I heard someone once say they bought a Cobb oven into their dining room, as they had been informed you could use them indoors, they reckon it set off their carbon monoxide detector in a worryingly short amount of time, I think it was a matter of a couple of minutes

So NO! Charcoal (in any form, even in a Cobb oven) is definitely NOT safe to use indoors, in a caravan, in a tent or in ANY area that is poorly ventilated.