The Camping Forum

[rexgrant]

Hi all
Been disabled and living out in the sticks 30miles from shopping towns we have to use the Internet to purchase most thing we require for camping and caravanning, and lots of other commodities ,
But a large percentage of the orders we put in they take my money but don't have the goods in stock. WE now have to phone the company to find out if they have the goods that is if you can find a phone number And even then at times we receive a part order saying Sorry they have just run out and will send the rest as soon as they come in, or they hang on for a week until they get the goods in.
It is time Legislation was brought out to stop retailers taking money for good they do not have in stock good firms have Internet systems that inform buyers that goods are out of stock it is time they all make sure their web pages are up to date,or is it a ploy by these irreputable traders to save stocking the good for financial reasons, I can not be the only punter that is constantly let down with these traders.
A p----- off punter
Regards
Rex.

[pitkin2020]

Personally I don't see an issue, websites are maintained by humans who may or may not check the stock religiously or update the stock level on the website minute by minute. Automated systems can be put in place but even then they can fail especially if the business has a public shop too where stock is being picked from.

Payment has to be made first or the company wouldn't know if it was a genuine order, what would stop them picking the order and preparing it for dispatch to find the buyer has now changed their mind. Time wasted within a business has to be paid for so its the final consumer that has to pick up the bill.

[rexgrant]

Personally I don't see an issue, websites are maintained by humans who may or may not check the stock religiously or update the stock level on the website minute by minute. Automated systems can be put in place but even then they can fail especially if the business has a public shop too where stock is being picked from.

Payment has to be made first or the company wouldn't know if it was a genuine order, what would stop them picking the order and preparing it for dispatch to find the buyer has now changed their mind. Time wasted within a business has to be paid for so its the final consumer that has to pick up the bill.

Sorry I must disagree with you. unless you inform the customer that you do not have the goods in stock and offer a refund.then the retailer is breaking the distance selling regulation, many campers have had their holidays ruined because of these retailers
. I no longer get caught with them because i order a few weeks before I require the goods and if they fail to inform me that they are not in stock I cancel the full order and buy elsewhere.The issue hear is not that they have run out of stock they have failed to check my order that they have taken my money for, and not immediately on checking the order is not in stock, email or phone me of that fact. that is why we give these retailers our Email address and telephone. There is no exuse for them not doing this.
Regards
Rex

[pitkin2020]

My bad, I agree they should inform within 1 working day if they don't have your item in stock and issue a refund if you don't wish to wait. A refund can take a few days though for it to process back into an account.

I also noticed you mentioned about "WE now have to phone the company to find out if they have the goods that is if you can find a phone number " my advice is that if the website doesn't have an address and telephone number clearly listed on their website then don't buy from them. Its against the law not to list contact details including an address on business websites.

[rexgrant]

Hi again
Yes I agree,no phone no order but what really gets me going is when they send you a replacement without contacting you. I now insist that they collect the goods and refund. I never send them back if they want them they must fetch them.
Regards
Rex

[Wayne]

Hi again
Yes I agree,no phone no order but what really gets me going is when they send you a replacement without contacting you. I now insist that they collect the goods and refund. I never send them back if they want them they must fetch them.
Regards
Rex

Hi Rex
I have been lucky I guess, in the sense that none of the above has happened to me. I do agree Rex if you ordered a blue sleeping bag and a red one turned, its not on. You are basically storing an item for them (which a small storage charge would be in order) and to date your order hasn't been filled.

I do tend to be careful where I buy on-line, and have a chosen few businesses i try to stick to and they only take the money when an order is filled and ready for dispatch. But i do tend to also use Ebay and Playtraders who can have there moments.

I am currently having an issue with two Gelert Toiletry bags I ordered through Ebay. They were dispatched 12 days ago and have not turned up. The seller has responded to my enail very quickly and requested I wait 14days to see if they will turn up after which time they will refund or send out two more. Not really the sellers fault, unless its a ploy because they are waiting stock . But I don't think so, I try to trust people at face value where possible.

[TerryV]

In a similar situation being a fair distance from the nearest decent size town. Have to say my experience of mail order camping gear has been nothing but positive so seem very lucky.

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[OutdoorWorldDirect]

I think this is an interesting post RE UK distance sellers.

I don't think they all suck but maybe a lot do in terms of taking the money and not contacting if the item is out of stock. There's no excuse for that really. I think the 1 working day thing is spot on,as the other person mentions, they should be in touch.

The problem is that Internet Retail is still relatively new as it's only ten years old. Also, it moves so fast, it's hard to keep up some times. Therefore a lot of retailers are still new to it and don't really know how to run an online business or deal with online customers. I have to say when we started online it took us a few years to get to the point where we were efficient and able to deal with online customers to the same standard as our in store customers. It was a learning curve. I think with time as technologies get better and Retailers get more used to it, Online Retail will improve.

My Dad was speaking go a German couple the other day and they were saying that over in Germany there are very few independent retailers online and that everyone just uses Amazon.de because they do not trust any of the other websites in Germany to deliver the stocks efficiently etc.

Maybe if shopping online its worth researching websites online to see what the feedbacks are like, Play and Amazon are really good at that.

Been 30 miles for trading areas is always a problem online, i have to say that certain areas can be a nightmare for delivery because of the location. Some of the Scottish isles can take ten days for delivery, yet we can send a parcel to California on a next day delivery for the same price?

[CrazyCamper]

Good thread with some interesting views from BOTH sides - excellent reading

From experience and my own understanding of the technologies involved, the biggest bugbear by far is the stock control issue. The online selling option allows the buyer to click on a quantity to order - which is when the assumption is made that this item exists on a shelf somewhere...
Amongst the online retailers, there are many who DO use a computerised stock control system internally - obviously not all online retailers do so as the systems cost a lot to implement.

To paraphrase a famous Top Gear phrase.... "How hard can it be?" to link up the independent computer systems within the retailer in a secure way, so that when an online order quantity is clicked, the stock level is adjusted instantly? If they also sell over the counter, the same can happen, therefore the stock control system runs 'live' so that when stocks run out, it should make it impossible to order online or pick stock in store either? The more enhanced versions of this kind of softare even automatically replenish stock when it runs lower than a pre-set level and dependent on sales volumes too...

I'm not implying this all-in-one system doesn't already exist out there, but it is REALLY frustrating to find an online order is not available after you've paid, and shouldn't happen in the modern retail world.

[pitkin2020]

Pete that sort of system you mention is already in existence but its not cheap, and I when I say not cheap its really not cheap. For a shop already set up it could mean a complete overhaul of their EPOS systems, servers, internet connections and computer systems, you could be looking at something that with low internet sales could take an age to repay back, which by the time its been repaid a new system which is better and more efficient will be on the market, so it all starts again.

Even these systems aren't 100% and can't take into account human area, the system may say there are 40 gas cookers in stock but you only need one human to drop the pallet off the forklift and wipe the stock out.

Customers have to take some responsibility aswell, I sell online and too many people either use a fake phone number or dead email address (probably to avoid spam, which I never send out anyway) so when there is a problem they complain you haven't got in touch, when in reality you can't, you have to wait for them to call/email you asking where their order is. That example is a minority of course but still happens.

Communication is key, if you can get in touch with customers with any problems as soon as possible its not so bad and most people don't mind waiting for stock to arrive for a couple of days, or if they really need it they will go else where but be grateful they haven't been kept hanging on.

[OutdoorWorldDirect]

Even these systems aren't 100% and can't take into account human area, the system may say there are 40 gas cookers in stock but you only need one human to drop the pallet off the forklift and wipe the stock out.

Quote of the century! So true, that has happened to many companies in the past. Did you see the Youtube Video of the forklift driver who takes out the entire warehouse?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRjLErrAFQ - Imagine your EPOS counts after that!

Yeah, Pitkin hits the nail on the head with his comment i think. To link a shop's EPOS to the website is an overhaul, we had the same issue so now we split the stocks apart. Originally, when we linked them onto one EPOS, it was never a live system, it used to update at the end of every day, what use is that? You could sell all your supply in one day if everyone else is sold out. That was Actinic, which i think is useless, never look to use that software if you are selling online or instore for various reasons.

There are live systems readily available that have live databases for free, we use one ourselves now and it works well, the problem is that you still need someone with the IT knowledge to put it together and maintain it. But if you can, it works beautifully. Problem is these people cost money! Modern stock issues often come from when you are selling on Amazon, Play and Ebay, you can never integrate all the systems into one and that is what causes EPOS errors constantly.

Sometimes customers forget that the outdoor trade is a really small industry, and most companies are focused at one area of that specific industry. Example being that we are mainly involved in the family camping aspect of the outdoor trade. Therefore to have that kind of money to put the perfect system in place for such a seasonal business is simply not possible. With the exception of maybe a few in the trade, not many companies could afford such expensive systems.

Plus most businesses seem to have a few websites now which means linking them gets harder as you cant have the same database on two websites with the same info or Google might penalise your site and drop your rankings.

I think Communication is the most important thing, as Rex says, its best to phone just to be sure the item is in stock if you are concerned.

[Nunfa1]

The biggest concern for me is when a business takes your money straight away rather than wait until the item has been picked and packaged. If more retailers did this then it would cut the amount of complaints drastically. I will deliberately avoid any internet retailer if I know they take the money straight away rather than when the item has been shipped, Wildday operate like this as do another site in the home brewing industry (their customer care reputation is so bad most home brew forums are banned from naming the shop.) But all the complaints about companies like these are the same, "they took my money and I've waited x amount of time and still nothing." Most of these issues could be wiped out by simply charging the card only once the item(s) have been packaged or shipped.

[pitkin2020]

The biggest concern for me is when a business takes your money straight away rather than wait until the item has been picked and packaged. If more retailers did this then it would cut the amount of complaints drastically. I will deliberately avoid any internet retailer if I know they take the money straight away rather than when the item has been shipped, Wildday operate like this as do another site in the home brewing industry (their customer care reputation is so bad most home brew forums are banned from naming the shop.) But all the complaints about companies like these are the same, "they took my money and I've waited x amount of time and still nothing." Most of these issues could be wiped out by simply charging the card only once the item(s) have been packaged or shipped.

Its not feasible for large retailers to wait until shipping before taking payment, whilst the smaller guys are ok doing this it creates far too much work for a large retailer. What happens when the item gets shipped and payment is declined, or the customer doesn't have the funds in the bank, or changes their mind. It creates another step in the process that doesn't need to be there Chuck in that a lot of sites use paypal/sage pay/google checkout etc instead of a merchant its not possible to delay the payment, you pay there and then.

You pay the retailer to show your commitment to the purchase, the retailer then processes your order and ships it out. I for one will not even attempt to put an order together until payment has been made, to process an order costs me money, money which could be wasted if the customer changes their mind last minute.

You can't do much online shopping if you avoid retailers that take payment straight away as there are very few companies, especially mainstream companies that take payment at the shipping stage. Amazon, play, ebuyer, ebay, just to name a few expect payment with order.

[OutdoorWorldDirect]

Its not feasible for large retailers to wait until shipping before taking payment, whilst the smaller guys are ok doing this it creates far too much work for a large retailer. What happens when the item gets shipped and payment is declined, or the customer doesn't have the funds in the bank, or changes their mind. It creates another step in the process that doesn't need to be there Chuck in that a lot of sites use paypal/sage pay/google checkout etc instead of a merchant its not possible to delay the payment, you pay there and then.

Well as you say, if you were to operate on this system then you are limited to having one type of payment, which is bad customer service according to many people. But you can have a system just for authorising payments but not taking them until the item is shipped. We have such a system but it still has limitations, one being that it does not apply for anyone paying by Paypal etc. Also it makes partial refunds a nightmare if one item is out of stock and the rest aren't then you have to confirm the full payment and make a partial refund. Otherwise it does partially refund the payment (Though this could just be the Payment Provider i use)

The system works because it freezes the money in the bank account, but it doesn't take the money, not till the merchant fulfils the order. Therefore the customer has to have the money in their bank account for the sale to be Authorised in the first place. Then you simply process it when your done packing the item.

If you look though, even the big boys such as Amazon & Play process your payment before they pack and ship your order. I noticed this when I placed an order on Play the other day. These guys are the market leaders online, so if that's how they are processing and shipping orders, then Retailers across the web will copy the system.

[pitkin2020]

The system works because it freezes the money in the bank account, but it doesn't take the money, not till the merchant fulfils the order. Therefore the customer has to have the money in their bank account for the sale to be Authorised in the first place. Then you simply process it when your done packing the item.

From a consumers point this method is worse though especially if something goes wrong. Usually because the funds are being held by the bank/merchant in preparation for a payment they can't just stop it and refund so it can actually take longer to get a refund then if you had paid and then the money gets refunded back into your account. Also like you say it limits what payment methods you can take. Your damned if you do damned if you don't. Thankfully most people who shop online have a good understanding of how it works so know exactly what is involved.

If you have used Asda online for shopping (or it could be tesco) they don't take the funds until the order has been delivered. Great but if you have to return several items it can several days before you see a refund even though they have processed the refund the same day as the order was delivered.